In this episode, Clinical Mental Health Counselor Associate, Abigail Hoyer, sits down with me to talk about the gap moment. That tiny space between your old patterns and a real choice. We get into what happens when your whole identity gets built around keeping everyone else comfortable, what it takes to come back home to yourself, and why choice is not always as accessible as we think it is.
In this episode, we talk about:
- The gap moment and learning to choose differently
- Healing people pleasing patterns after divorce
- Why choice can feel like a privilege
- Somatic tools to regulate your nervous system
- Becoming a therapist and changing careers at 40
- Reclaiming your voice as a Manifestor
- Using the Enneagram to understand your patterns
- Truth telling in your closest relationships
- Moving from anger into your signature state of peace
Connect with Abigail Hoyer:
Website: https://www.wildheartsociety.org/staff/abigail
Email: abigail.hoyer@gmail.com
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Full Episode Transcript
This transcript was auto-generated, so a few words may be a little off.
Abigail Hoyer: it just depends on the individual and their background and what resources they've had and what development they've had access to as to whether or not they're skillful yet in that capacity to choose.
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm. Yes. Keyword. yes. After years of people pleasing, this one question changed the entire course of her life. That question being, who am I? After years of people pleasing tendencies, she was so lost. Today on the podcast we have Abigail Hoyer. She is a mental health therapist in Portland, Oregon, and We dive deep into exploring those gap moments of not really understanding who you are anymore and that tiny space between the old pattern and the actual choice. As always, I'm your host, Sasha Pearl, the Energy Architect, and I guide soul-led women in building authentic six-figure businesses online by aligning their identity, their brand, and their content from the inside out. And before we hop into the episode, I have just launched Human First Content Intensive, where we create a playbook based off of your unique energetics, and we dive deep into a 90-minute strategy session. going over that playbook with you so you have a roadmap to know exactly what you need to be doing and how you can authentically share yourself with the world in a way that actually feels good to show up in. That link will be in the show notes. And with further ado, let's get into it. Today on the podcast, we have Abigail Hoyer, and she is a 6'2 manifestor with emotional authority. Abigail, thank you so much for being here.
Abigail Hoyer: I am happy to be here. I talk all day. It's part of my job. So happy to do it.
Sasha Pearl: Hell yeah, we love it. So what do you do in the world? What is your job in the world currently?
Abigail Hoyer: Yes. Okay. Right now I recently finished grad school to become a mental health therapist. And so I am just starting out in my first year post-grad school. learning, learning, learning. So I I've never been so satisfied in like what I get to do every day. and I'm just I landed in a place that is supportive in teaching me. And so I'm really enjoying it.
Sasha Pearl: That's yeah, that's incredible. I would love to hear you you're like, I feel deeply satisfied in my life right now. I would love to hear about your journey to getting this point because you have just recently pivoted into this new career. So what what were you doing before and what were some of the thresholds and portals you had to walk through to get to where you're at today?
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah. I remember, I I can vividly remember being a young kid looking around thinking everyone else knows what they're gonna do or knows what they're excited about. And I have no idea. And I like was like, I just feel like a floating human and I don't know what to do. and so I kind of just followed a religious line because that was what I grew up in. And And like post-bachelor's degree in theology, I still didn't know what to do when I got into the coffee industry. Cause like, what are you gonna do in the Northwest except get into the coffee industry? And did that for years and hit like the coffee industry. I mean, I basically became a barista and then
Sasha Pearl: What do you mean you got into the coffee industry? Yeah. I love okay.
Abigail Hoyer: slowly worked my way up and became a manager of a store of like a small. local chain and I was just under the owners. So there was like nowhere else to go with that. and so
Sasha Pearl: Go, yeah. What chain was it?
Abigail Hoyer: it was it's called Insomnia Coffee Company. It's in like Beaverton
Sasha Pearl: I don't think another one.
Abigail Hoyer: Hillsboro, kind of on the west side of Portland. they have a few different locations. Their coffee's fantastic. They're really great. highly recommend
Sasha Pearl: I have never even heard of them. Okay, cool.
Abigail Hoyer: if you're over on that side of town.
Sasha Pearl: Love
Abigail Hoyer: And okay and then so then I was like I'll get into office management. Like I I didn't know where else to go, but I needed like a foot in the door. So I looked around and I found a business consulting firm that wanted an office manager. And because of my managerial skills from before, there was like enough to like make me worth, you know, them hiring me. so then just gained more like I remember going from like this, like it was like a mom and pop. kind of feel like small company into like big company. And
Sasha Pearl: Okay.
Abigail Hoyer: so that felt a little intimidating. I had to kind of learn corporate America in that setting. It felt kind of fake to be honest, but like I I enjoyed the role of of support player. and then there was really nowhere to go there either. But While I was there, this woman who was a colleague who actually one of her passions in life was like career development for people, like working with them with their career development. We had started,
Sasha Pearl: perfect.
Abigail Hoyer: yeah, right. We had started like a three, like every three weeks we'd get on the phone and like talk about my future or talk about like how would I figure that out because I didn't know what I wanted to do. And probably my most, most pivotal moment career wise, had to She in one conversation, she said, How about this? Close your eyes and like describe to me through the senses the environment of a place you want to work in. So I sat there on the phone with my eyes closed and I started describing that the environment was pretty calm. There might be like a little tinkling water fountain sound in the background.
Sasha Pearl: We love that.
Abigail Hoyer: There might like I just started to describe what I the environment I wanted to be in to do my career every day. And as soon as I finished the description, I told her it's a therapist office. That's what it is. That's what I literally that's what I described. Like once I finished it, I was like, I absolutely know what I just described. That's what I want to do. And she was like, cool. Like, sounds good. And then I ended up having a conversation with a different colleague in that same vein. And she's like, start looking at grad school programs. Like, why not? Like I think I had counted myself out. Like I had done a bachelor's that I'd gone kind of farther than most of the people in my family. But I had never well, I never thought, yeah, I'd never thought I could do grad school. but then I
Sasha Pearl: That's crazy.
Abigail Hoyer: started looking into programs, got accepted, and like as soon as I started doing the school, the classes, I was like, absolutely this is what I'm doing.
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: I could read and write and talk and think about psychology and people and dynamics forever. Like, I will not get tired of this. This is absolutely where I'm supposed to be.
Sasha Pearl: That is so incredible because so you're sixth line in human design, right? And so your life happens in three phases, which zero to thirty is all about experimentation, 30 to 50 is all about the integration, and then 50 plus is about being the influencer. So I love how you experience the college, the coffee, the office job. Like I still not like I can only go so far in these things. So it doesn't surprise me that you are like, I need to go do something else at the age of 40. So you're literally still
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah, yeah.
Sasha Pearl: like now you're really integrating all of your lived experiences because I always believe
Abigail Hoyer: Yes.
Sasha Pearl: that what our life is a series of golden nuggets that we had to go and experience because at the end it like it it sets us up for what we're actually meant to be doing. And it's so refreshing to have you be like, and I'm obsessed with my job and I can, you know. be and learn psychology and people for forever, which is amazing.
Abigail Hoyer: Forever.
Sasha Pearl: Yeah. And then as a manifest, you're really here to inform people, right? Yeah. No, manifestors are super,
Abigail Hoyer: Ooh, ooh, okay. Cool.
Sasha Pearl: like, super powerful. and your voice is like the your voice is like one of the most important aspects of being a manifestor. And you're also here to bring like new ways of being into the world. So I'm curious to, I know you're obviously just starting your new, you're like this new career, but what are some philosophies that you're starting to bring in into your sessions with people?
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah, yeah. Love this question. one
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: of the foundational things I usually say at intake is just so you so they know like what who they're working with and how I see humans and development and all that is that in my office or in our times together, this is a place where there's nothing to fix. There's nothing wrong with you. there's nothing that I need that I am here to be like, you need to shift this, you need to change this. There is no pressure, no expectation that you are any certain way. So that means here, this is a space of curiosity,
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: like non-judgment, just curiosity, and like what do you want to know about yourself? Where do you want to go? Are there things you do that get in your way that you wanna like experiment and changing? so I really and then another really important lens for me is cultural and like systems. So like understanding
Sasha Pearl: Mm.
Abigail Hoyer: the systems that we live in, in the culture that we live in, bringing that person's culture, if it's like American or otherwise, into the room. And recognizing that there's so many things that we internalize and think that it's us, I'm not doing it, or I have this mental health diagnosis, or I have this thing, without any, not always, some of them, some people have reflected on this, but often Individuals haven't reflected on how do the systems that we live in how have I internalized those things and
Sasha Pearl: Mm.
Abigail Hoyer: made myself the problem or the person
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: who just can't blank
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: when it's actually the system is not set up for you to do well
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: and putting the responsibility where it lies, which is actually outside
Sasha Pearl: Mm.
Abigail Hoyer: of you rather than inside of you. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: Right. So it does all of your work really get the people back to like in sourcing themselves as like their own power, their own autonomy in the world? Yes.
Abigail Hoyer: Yes, yes, yes, that that's probably another line, not probably, that is another line in my intake. Like in this space, choice, autonomy, like self-determination. is critical. Like again, I am not, I know I'm the expert in the room, but like
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: I'm not here to tell you what needs to be done.
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: I am a witness, I'm a guide, I'm a steward of
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: this moment together. And I will do, you know, I will do my best to support whatever process is going to be unfolding for you. Yeah. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that is that is so powerful too. I think that I've actually had recently been having a lot of conversations on the podcast about this, where I think a lot of people think that because you're like the expert, you know better than their own intuition, their own wisdom. And I
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: think the power of therapy or even coaching is like, how do we ask the right questions to get you to answer from your own, you know, alignment, soul, wisdom. So I love that that's
Abigail Hoyer: Mm-hmm.
Sasha Pearl: like a a through line for you in the sessions that you have. I would love to hear a little bit more too about the gap moment you mentioned in h in in bridging I actually what is the gap moment and how do you utilize it in your sessions?
Abigail Hoyer: let's see. Okay, I apologize. Remind me which which section of that is what was the gap moment about.
Sasha Pearl: Yes. I think it's actually on your You I believe counseling
Abigail Hoyer: is that the one where
Sasha Pearl: is a process of transformation that takes bravery and safe connection while tuning into the wisdom of the body. We will work together to create the gap that gap moment where you choose
Abigail Hoyer: yes, okay.
Sasha Pearl: how you want to be in relationship to yourself and the world. I got that from your bio actually. Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: Yes, okay, sorry about that. You're like, you said it. yes. The cap moment. Yes, okay. Well, I think often, well There's so many layers. Let's see if I can put it into cons
Sasha Pearl: Ugh great. Let's unpack it.
Abigail Hoyer: concise language. all of us as we grow from a young person through our stages of development and into adulthood. Develop strategies along the way to manage disconnection, hurt, frustration, neglect sometimes, even abuse. and these strategies, and there's there's actually neuroscience research around this, but these strategies are developed from like moments. Where kind of we got an emotional memory stamped into essentially our nervous system. And it's a moment where you subconsciously and usually at a young age develop a belief of like, I am not enough.
Sasha Pearl: Mm.
Abigail Hoyer: Or I'm too needy. Or any of these like kind of underlying beliefs that drive some of our behavior. and so like I said, a lot of this is subconscious. and so in the therapy process, we are curiously examining behavior, which are usually developed like comes from
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: our strategies to like stay connected, that sometimes actually don't end up serving us in the long run.
Sasha Pearl: Mm, mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: And so I am usually tuning in and looking for where can we create just a little bit of separation from those things we've always done that just feel like they're a part of our very being, that have tried to keep us safe, tried to keep us from hurt, from wounding, from grief, from pain, sorrow. And That gap moment can give us, instead of just like acting out of these kind of emotionally stamped truths from our young age where we couldn't make sense of the moment, and maybe
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: no one could meet us in that moment, walk us through it. That gap allows us to like make choice. So kind of tying back to that idea of autonomy, choice, all that. If we can get just a little separation from those processes and like yeah strategies that were set in motion a long time ago, then there's a hope that we don't always have to function out of those, but we can get separation to maybe see them more clearly. And then we can make a choice as to whether we want to keep keep basically functioning out of those or if we want to make a change. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: Yeah. And that's the gap moment. Wow.
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Sasha Pearl: I love it. I've we've been talking a lot about choice on this podcast recently too. So tell me a little bit more. I always say, like, in any moment, we can actually choose to show up a different way. And
Abigail Hoyer: Mm-hmm.
Sasha Pearl: I believe that not everyone that I don't know if that is like actually innate to people. There it a lot of people, I think, play into like life is happening to me instead of life is happening
Abigail Hoyer: Mm-hmm.
Sasha Pearl: for me. So I would love to hear a little bit more about your just philosophy on choice as a human and like yes, you can still choose to stay the same and you can also choose to not look at it the same way.
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah. I mean, so much goes into whether or not an individual can access, like in the way I think about psychology and human development and attachment and all those things, like having access to choosing differently almost sometimes feels like a privilege. Like
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: that skill. That ability to connect with choice. Yeah, sometimes people will get into their adulthood and not be connected to that part of themselves that feels like they can choose and choose differently. So sometimes that's the work that's happening in here. And that is informed by so many things that happen before the moment they arrive in this office.
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: sometimes in some therapy modalities, like one of the interventions is like, okay, this this trigger happens. Usually you do this. Try doing the opposite. See what happens. and so that kind of can like can like pluck people out of the usual cycle.
Sasha Pearl: Right yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: but not, it just depends on the individual and their background and what resources they've had and what development they've had access to as to whether or not they're skillful yet in that capacity to choose. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I believe it's possible for everyone,
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm. Yes. Keyword. Yet. I find that really yes.
Abigail Hoyer: but like, where's your access to it?
Sasha Pearl: Right. That's interesting. I also I found it really interesting when said a lot of people think that their own choice is a privilege.
Abigail Hoyer: Mmm. Well, my thought with that is like having access to that part of you that feels autonomy. If I'm thinking at like at like systemic levels, if you've been born into poverty, abuse, neglect, like
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: you might not yet be connected to a true sense of autonomy and choice.
Sasha Pearl: Mm.
Abigail Hoyer: depending on
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: what so like yeah gosh it's so multi it's so multifaceted
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: but like yeah that is to me that's a part of development that that can come over time and not everyone has the same like I grew up with a pretty in a pretty safe environment with a at least one really solid attachment figure
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: and Because of that I was able to go through the s natural stages of human development pretty well because I wasn't having to attend to Like not being allowed to be to have access to my developmental stages because of traumatic events in my life.
Sasha Pearl: I know.
Abigail Hoyer: And so even now that I am a 41-year-old woman who has been through grad school and now has a career, I encounter so many people who because of The just the family they were born into and the situations they were born into and the way our culture is set up and designed, they even now have a harder time understanding and accessing their autonomy and their their personal choice because
Sasha Pearl: Mm.
Abigail Hoyer: so much of that was taken away so early. Does that make sense?
Sasha Pearl: Yeah. Yeah, one hundred percent.
Abigail Hoyer: So like part of like access to simply that innate process in all humans sometimes feels like a a privilege. Does that make sense? Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, absolutely. So I guess as someone who did grow up with a lot of traumatic experiences, what how how do they and if they don't have access to therapy or don't have ac I mean there's so much it we're in the age of information at this point, but what have you seen as the access point for people to really understand that they actually can connect? to that at any point, connect to their choice at any point. Right. Like
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: is there like 'cause it's just it's about an awareness, right? So what is that
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a
Sasha Pearl: point?
Abigail Hoyer: yeah, it's a it's definitely about awareness. I agree. hmm. Well, I think once you are what I'm finding to be like a true pattern in the therapy room is like once you get past in our culture, 18. That still sounds like a real young adult. Maybe
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: even p like past those early 20 years where your brain is literally still developing. And you're you become an adult who's able to make safe connection with other people. You can your body. So like again, that's the somatic piece, right? Your body, your mind. Ever so often I encounter my clients are like, I get it. I get that I'm safe now. Like I understand from a like a logical perspective that like we're we're good to go. Like we are in a safe
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: relationship now. We're in a safe house. Like now I pay rent and I get to determine who comes in and out of this place.
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: But their body is still acting as if they were back there in that unsafe
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: environment. So, like, yeah, kind of making your way through those young years, your brain continues its development. You're able to find a safe connection, safe environment. And You're basically having new experiences where, like, finally autonomy actually is honored, like legally, right? By
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: government, by the culture. And you start to get to practice that choice making. You start to get to practice that in safety. And there is a neuroscientific process. Where, and this is what can happen in the therapy room, where a current adult safe, empowered experience, you like bring that up to your like body awareness and you bring it into kind of like psychological contact with the past memories. Like again, how did it feel in your body in that moment where something happened and you said, You learned, you had this emotional learning, I am all alone.
Sasha Pearl: Mm.
Abigail Hoyer: No one's here to help me. And I'm overwhelmed. And you've lived out of that ever since, but now you have a moment. Of safety where you are autonomous, you do have choice, and you bring those two together while feeling them both in your body. And this younger one, it's like it updates. It's almost like a software update in the brain. And
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: that's part of the neurological mechanism that can help usher in new behavior and new change.
Sasha Pearl: Okay. So that's
Abigail Hoyer: That's the process.
Sasha Pearl: this is what so for people who aren't in therapy, what are some ways
Abigail Hoyer: Mm, mm-hmm.
Sasha Pearl: that they can, if they're for whatever reason, listen to this free podcast and they're like,
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: my God, I can create choice in any moment and choose a different way. What is so I guess this this podcast would be the awareness of that idea? And
Abigail Hoyer: Okay. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: then what would the next step be for them to really
Abigail Hoyer: Mm-hmm.
Sasha Pearl: like honor and act, right? Cause it's like Isn't it? It's it's it's about a habitual habit, right? Like you're building a habit
Abigail Hoyer: Yes.
Sasha Pearl: to re to recreate new neural pathways in the brain. Right. So what would
Abigail Hoyer: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: you say to someone who is just like, wait, what I can choose
Abigail Hoyer: Yep.
Sasha Pearl: in this moment? What what could they do? Like just small, simple things that they could do to really be in their bring it back into their body and shift
Abigail Hoyer: Yes.
Sasha Pearl: the belief.
Abigail Hoyer: I love the question. I mean, it can be some people feel like it can be a little wacky, but I mean, something I've even utilized personally is if I can feel my nervous system shifting from safe, calm, kind of smooth, to like it's starting to ramp up because something's happening around
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: me or in me. I might put my hand on my chest and like get out of my thinking brain and into my body and say, this is not an emergency. I have choice. I am safe.
Sasha Pearl: Love that. Love that. And so putting your hands over your bot like over your heart is like the
Abigail Hoyer: Mm.
Sasha Pearl: part of like being like, I'm creating awareness around my like the body sensation. Right.
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah, you you again, you really want to get out of your thinking brain and connect with your Some of us call it like the like the felt sense, like whatever is happening in like emotions are sensations in the body. They're information. So
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: you're going into your like physical body sensations. And it's almost like, almost like mothering a child
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: who is in distress. There's like this adult part of you that comes to. The like young part of you, maybe that still is active, activated in your body that says, We are like we're safe right now in this moment. We're okay. This is not an emergency. We are not in danger. Let's, you know, let's take a moment. And it could be the mindfulness of, like, you know, feel your feet on the floor, notice a sound in the background. But like I guess the magic is like in the s the stopping, the pausing, to
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: not climb up the like nervous system ladder. It's in the stopping,
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: the pausing, and the presence. Like the connection inward. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where the magic is.
Sasha Pearl: Yes. Yeah. And I I almost feel like that has to be like the like that's the first habit is the pause. In
Abigail Hoyer: Yes, pause. Yes.
Sasha Pearl: a world where we're conditioned to keep going, going, going and like completely override all of our entire nervous system. responses. Crazy. So I love that you use a lot of so you do use a lot of somatic body work in
Abigail Hoyer: Yes.
Sasha Pearl: your practice. Can you tell me a little bit more about how that actu well, A, what are some things that you do in your practice that really help facilitate a deeper conversation? we'll start there.
Abigail Hoyer: Okay. Yeah, I mean, I'm usually pausing us and asking, like, what is happening in your body? Like, like what you said, like no, we're pausing right here. Sometimes it looks like,
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm. My mind is like, I just wanna go, I just wanna keep finishing. And you're like, let's pause here. What's happening to your body?
Abigail Hoyer: and my therapist has done this to me, sometimes it looks like pausing and saying, Hey, right in this moment. Can we send, like, can you send yourself some compassion? Can you just feel and receive some compassion for, I don't know, maybe you're experiencing frustration, maybe there's like perfectionism happening, maybe there's whatever's going on, it's like, can we take a second?
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: Let's experience some compassion around this. For some, it's even hard to describe. For them, it's hard to describe what's happening in the body. So sometimes
Sasha Pearl: Mm.
Abigail Hoyer: I bring in tools that are like give options. I have my my emotion sensation pillow wheel. And we'll like, we'll look at that.
Sasha Pearl: my god. I love that.
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah. We'll take a look at that. And I'm like, do you feel any of these things? Do you feel Your heart racing. Are you clenched? Is your jaw tight? Like, is there a lump in your throat? Are you do you feel like curling up? Like, you know, some people aren't they're so used to living maybe a little dissociated because
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: it was it is or was unsafe to be in here, to
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: be in this body. So sometimes it's just teaching like how to be aware, what to notice. Some people can rattle off what they're experiencing and so then, you know, we'll start there. But
Sasha Pearl: I love that you have at least the pillow to help them and guide them. Well, isn't it was it where was I reading or maybe I listened to this? But people are like it's like I people know if they're happy, sad, or angry, right? Or s or in
Abigail Hoyer: Right. Right.
Sasha Pearl: maybe something else. And then other people are, it's like there's nuances to all of these and they're actually roots to an even more nuanced feeling or emotion, right?
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah. I think that's what I like particularly about this one because this pillow is emotion and sensation. So it starts with the six big ones, anger, disgust, sad, happy, surprise.
Sasha Pearl: Okay.
Abigail Hoyer: And then from there, the next ring is more emotional language. And then this largest outer ring are sensations, like bodily sensations that tend to fall, flow from those. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: Let's do let's do happy and then is that second one joy?
Abigail Hoyer: Sure. Yes. So there's hap, so under happy, there's joy. So that is like open, energetic. Then you've got your curiosity. You're awake. Ooh, brow furrowed. That's interesting. But like you're curious. You're like, yeah, you know. proud
Sasha Pearl: Yeah, you're like coin it? Yeah. I love that.
Abigail Hoyer: can feel like inflated or tall. Satisfied can feel soft and calm, courageous, can feel steady.
Sasha Pearl: that is so powerful.
Abigail Hoyer: Your jaw is set. Yeah. So yeah, each of them. And that's so helpful for people who are so unfamiliar with noticing sensation at all. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Have you so I I've been have you read Power versus Force by Jen? No? Okay. Have you heard of
Abigail Hoyer: No I haven't.
Sasha Pearl: the map of consciousness?
Abigail Hoyer: I've heard of it. I've heard people talk about it. Yeah, yeah.
Sasha Pearl: Okay. By David R. Hawkins. Okay. Well, he has like essentially an energetic frequency. So a number attached to the a feel emotional state, feeling state.
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: And so it's it shows you like when you are in joy, which is one of the the highest forms of frequency that you're in the most expansive, most magnetic. And when you're in like shame, fear, guilt, you're in the most contracted. So, anyways, I just love how it's
Abigail Hoyer: Sure.
Sasha Pearl: it's adding that. Wheel reminded me of that. And I love how it's also adding the layer of the sensation in your body, which is really cool. So I would love to also go back into your journey getting to being a therapist. So you had that conversation with your coworker, and in that moment, in that conversation, you asked, Who am I? Because you yourself were so unsure of the identity that you held. So tell
Abigail Hoyer: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Sasha Pearl: me a little bit more about like how. What prompted that question and that conversation for you?
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah. Yeah. So this was That conversation happened early 2020, like February, like right before the world shut down.
Sasha Pearl: Sounds about right.
Abigail Hoyer: And my marriage was just about to end. And so we were going through the myriad of conversations that led to the end of it, my ex and I. And I, yeah, I this was a person this coworker was a person I trusted that knew me really well. And I've been a people pleaser all my life. And what I have found, at least as a people pleaser, is it's so easy to lose identity. If you are
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: literally trying to become the thing that people want, you lose your sense of who you actually are. And so literally the ending of my marriage, what like now I can look back six years later and realize it was an absolute like launching pad for. rediscovering who I am. It was like, it was like by almost by shedding that, I shed, maybe it was a break in the perfectionism, which just allowed me to be like, if we're throwing it all out, then I'm starting completely over and now I'm gonna figure out who I really am. Like, so I sat down with her and I was like, I literally asked her, write me a list. Like when you think of me, what do you think of? Like What how do I appear to you? Like who am I? and
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: she so graciously, through you know, lots of tears and sweet connection, just like wrote out, started writing out a list of how she experiences me as a friend. And I think that lended to me like strength and hope in that moment of like I can, I can. Well, I liked what she said. It was it was it was very I was like, I like that person you're describing. and yeah, I think it allowed yeah, like I said, for hope.
Sasha Pearl: So what did you're like, I like that person that you're describing. So
Abigail Hoyer: Sure.
Sasha Pearl: what what were the differences of how you thought you were versus who she thought you were?
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah. I just felt like her list, hmm, it had like more energy to it. Like
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: there was, I mean, Abigail is a is Hebrew and it actually means like my father is joy, like my source is joy. because abba. is father and then Gail is Joy. So so that's something my parents have said forever. And that all that does ring true. But I feel like she pulled on threads, That maybe I just didn't really see or didn't feel like I embodied.
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: And I mean, I was in the middle of well, a lot of grief and a lot of sadness and confusion and pain. But it was like a light. Yeah, maybe kind of like a lighthouse of like this is There is more to me than I understand in this moment. Like she pulled on threads that made me believe that like there were parts about me that I had not yet embodied. Again, like hope really comes out of, like came out of that conversation of like I have not yet fully become, and there's like people actually believe and feel these things from me. So that kind of allowed me to believe it about myself. Does that make sense? Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: Yeah. Sometimes we need that external validation to actually see like be the mirror for who who we either aspire to be or who we naturally are. And sometimes we have disability to not see the greatness of who we are, but we can see the greatness of other people. Right.
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah, yeah.
Sasha Pearl: So is this when you started to committing to a journey of truth telling and
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: overcoming people pleasing and overcoming perfectionism?
Abigail Hoyer: I would say that journey was a little farther down the road. That
Sasha Pearl: Okay.
Abigail Hoyer: yeah. I had to like grieve and process and like slow it's been slow, but like on purpose though, of
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: like put you know, like maybe like building a house brick by brick, but it was like it was like the fertile ground for what was to come next. And I would say my truth telling journey has really been going for maybe like two years now. I when I got back into therapy at one point, about well, yeah, probably about two years ago. When early on, this is a question I often ask, and my therapist asked me, like, how will we know this is working for you? Like, how will we know something is happening in our counseling room? Like if we're being effective and I said, I will be telling the truth more. And so that's what I've been trying to do for the last couple years. Mm-hmm.
Sasha Pearl: So so what does that mean for you? Like where were you not showing up and telling the truth from? Or in moments?
Abigail Hoyer: Yes. So most particularly, and this is literally still happening day by day, like I'm literally working this out day by day.
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: I would say this probably shows up the most in my closest relationships. So that could include my co-parent, that can include like my current partner. it I would say my hesitation to tell the full truth. Comes up most often when my my body or my mind is alert to a concern that I might like cause someone else distress by the truth that I tell. So let's say
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: I know my partner will be sad if I tell her I won't like be hanging out with her on Saturday. I'm gonna do this other
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: thing. I
Sasha Pearl: All right.
Abigail Hoyer: might stall in like telling her about my plans. even though she's like, my gosh, go. But like I don't wanna cause sadness. I don't want to be the source of someone else's distress. But what's funny, what I'm learning, is that if if I am in relationship with emotionally mature individuals, which I she is one of those, I can trust her that even if she has an unpleasant emotion to the thing I say, to my plans, she is fully capable. Of handling that unpleasant emotion. And what I'm actually doing in like hesitating to say something is I'm actually trying to manage my own distress at
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: watching her distress and noticing her distress and being a source of slight distress. But like that, I'm actually managing it for me too. Like I'm trying to manage hers, but that's because I don't want to experience the distress that I will feel when I see her distress.
Sasha Pearl: And you're in a mature relationship, so she like you managing is just like a control power thing anyways, right? It's like it's it almost feels like it's made up a little.
Abigail Hoyer: Right. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. So yes. So yeah. For me, truth telling is like when I have an ink like when it's hard is when I have an inkling that it might upset someone else. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: Yeah. And what's so fascinating about that too, because you are a manifestor. So you are literally here to like initiate these types of conversations. And one
Abigail Hoyer: Uh-huh.
Sasha Pearl: of the shadows of of a manifest, though, is take being too much or taking up too much space. And the
Abigail Hoyer: yeah.
Sasha Pearl: first thing that goes is your voice. And that
Abigail Hoyer: Mm, mm.
Sasha Pearl: is like literally the gifting and the power center of who you're meant to be in the world. Which is really fascinating that this is something that you are now, you know, working through, thank God. and being able
Abigail Hoyer: Mm-hmm.
Sasha Pearl: to express more because the more that you can inform, the more people are gonna be able to like hop on board with you. Right. And so then inherently it causes dis like or removes the distress because we were like, well, she's overcommunicating, right? And informing
Abigail Hoyer: Mm, wow.
Sasha Pearl: me on how she feels and operates in the world. Yeah. It's powerful stuff.
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah. Well, and and underneath it too for me is somewhere along the way I picked up a belief that like cause I've I can tell I feel sure oftentimes about what I want to do. Like the path ahead is clear, but it might
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: upset somebody. But I know and I don't want to do anything else. I'm gonna do that thing.
Sasha Pearl: Yeah, that's that's literally your energy. Like you're meant to go do the thing. You're here to literally just
Abigail Hoyer: Uh-huh.
Sasha Pearl: like pave the path. You're the trailblazer. You're here to pave the path
Abigail Hoyer: So cool.
Sasha Pearl: for new new ways of being. So it's so honor your truth because that is actually where it's gonna keep
Abigail Hoyer: Yes.
Sasha Pearl: you in alignment to who you're meant to be in this world. And like, you know, I mean, I don't want to live a mediocre life. Like I want people to be like
Abigail Hoyer: No.
Sasha Pearl: fucking expressed in the world in the way that they're meant to be expressed. That feels, you know, really good.
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I wonder if part of it is like cultural and religious upbringing that's like to do that is
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm. One hundred percent, yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: like to be selfish, to do what I want,
Sasha Pearl: Mm.
Abigail Hoyer: to have a vision for myself, to choose what is in front of me and go get it, particularly as a woman. Selfish. So I have
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: to like get move past that. And understand what you are describing, that like actually what I am meant to do and be in the world is this person that blazes ahead. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: Yes, one hundred percent. And this actually comes back to just the idea of like choice is privilege, or some people think that choice could be privilege. It feels it almost feels like
Abigail Hoyer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: that because, because I am creating a choice that may make you uncomfortable, that's me being selfish. Which actually, if we're all just making choices that are, you know, in in support of the bigger vision, we're we're doing everyone a service. Right? Like you do
Abigail Hoyer: Yes. so true.
Sasha Pearl: not want to be having me show up to a social event if I haven't had like nine hours of sleep, I haven't been by myself for three At least an entire day by myself. You know, like like
Abigail Hoyer: Mm-hmm.
Sasha Pearl: I show up the way I show up because I have boundaries, energetic boundaries with everything in my life. Or try to be, right? Like I'm I'm not perfect. But I'm like, you do not want me in the social event if I
Abigail Hoyer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sasha Pearl: am cranky. But that's like
Abigail Hoyer: No.
Sasha Pearl: the power of choosing. I mean, like I choose to spend time by myself instead of choosing the tenth social activity for the day, right?
Abigail Hoyer: Yes. I feel that.
Sasha Pearl: Yeah. and then one of the last things I want to ask you about is your you said that learning and understanding your Enneagram actually shifted a lot for you as far as your own identity in the world.
Abigail Hoyer: Yes. Yeah. I stumbled across the Enneagram in my early twenties. And I am yeah, yeah,
Sasha Pearl: Okay. that's so early. Nice.
Abigail Hoyer: truly. It was, it's, it's been the most probably the one of the I think so, the most significant like personal growth tool. and so I am a nine wing one and that it helped me understand my relationship to anger. It helped me understand my relationship to like the lack of truth telling to my propensity to like stick my head in
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: the sand. Like the kind of like the the darker side of the nine is to like fall asleep to themselves. And yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So
Sasha Pearl: my god, wait, that's so s is that is the nine the peacemaker? fall asleep to yourself. That's interesting.
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah, because we the the like ideal that we chase is internal and external peace at any cost, but that cost can be ourselves.
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm. Oof.
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah. So like getting into action, like exactly what you were just saying, like knowing your like core and then going after it and not falling asleep to yourself, to who you are. You like nines can be brilliant mediators because they see all sides of things. they can be they're really non-judgmental. They're really open,
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: really accepting. and so they can be incredible people to like have in community. And they're the ones that people can come to to like experience deep connection and safety because there's just the nine they don't need you to be any certain way.
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: So there there's really beautiful parts to it too. There can be very equin god, we can live with a lot of equanimity, like we don't We don't need anything to be a certain way. Things can just be in our presence. Anyway, so yeah, it really explained to me a lot of like why I shy away from conflict, why I don't allow my anger to be expressed pretty often. and it like it just when you dig into it, there's paths for growth. and self, you know, actualization and realization and then understanding
Sasha Pearl: Yeah.
Abigail Hoyer: what your, you know, propensities might be and what to look out for. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: Yeah. So and I love that you brought up anger because in so in human design as a manifestor, your not self, which means when you are living not in alignment or you're making choices that are not aligned to your like highest potential, you you your sign your not self is anger. And when you are I love it. But and then your signature state is peace. So So I'm like the more that you can be yeah, I'm like, wait, this is so wild. So the more that you can
Abigail Hoyer: there you go. Yeah. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: actually be in peace is when you are in alignment because you are here to bring peace to the world by blazing new trails and ways of people being able to express themselves in it. Right. And so
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah, yeah. Woo!
Sasha Pearl: when you are in your yeah, like if you go back to the map of consciousness, anger is most one of the most contracted states that you can be in. And so it's like, okay, so the more that we can move you into peace the more that you're gonna be able to attract the life that you that you want and that you desire, right? So anger is actually one of the most that is something to definitely look at when you are, you know, building this new life that you're in. It's like where is anger showing up for me and getting really clear on how can you move yourself from anger into peace. But yeah, a lot of manifestors
Abigail Hoyer: Yes.
Sasha Pearl: shut down anger because as women, we're not meant to have it. We're not meant to have that rage, that anger, right? Especially expressing that into the world. But that's part of like some your vo your voice, right? And so if you're shutting down that,
Abigail Hoyer: Yes.
Sasha Pearl: you're shutting down so much of your your voice too. And like
Abigail Hoyer: Yes.
Sasha Pearl: your voice is actually what supports informing the people on this new way and blazing the new trail, right? Yeah. So crazy.
Abigail Hoyer: Yep. My area. I can feel it.
Sasha Pearl: okay. So I love to wrap up the podcast always with this last question. So if people were to really know you. What would they need to know about you?
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah. I love well, yeah, I'm just gonna be candid. One, I'm
Sasha Pearl: Yep.
Abigail Hoyer: pretty candid. Two, I just I love I love silliness. And I have a strong, strong, like, I don't quite understand it, but a strong sense of like no matter what happens, no matter what comes, like. I will handle it and be all the better for it. So I'm not easily put off. Like I'm not easily shaken through challenge and difficulty. Like almost like literally as it arrives, I'm like, ooh, what am I gonna get out of this one? Like what what gems are going to come? So I'm yeah, really silly, really candid, love to go deep real fast. I mean that's part the job. I am, I am an optimist. I but I also really value honoring like what is in the moment. So like if the moment is like grief is being processed, sorrow, sadness, frustration, like I will be there. I'm not going to like bypass something. Like
Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm.
Abigail Hoyer: You will get presence, you will get curiosity, you will get humor. Like, yeah. And if I make a mistake, if I mess up, I go, whoops, sorry about that. And I'm okay. Like, you know what I mean? Like you don't like you don't have to caretake me. Like, like, shoot, okay. Yeah, let's try again. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: Yep, I love it. Actually the la the thing I care least about is being right. I don't care to be right. I I just care to facilitate a deeper conversation of curiosity. Right?
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah. Yep. Cool. Yep. Same. Yeah. Totally.
Sasha Pearl: Great. So how thank you so much for being on the podcast. And how
Abigail Hoyer: Yeah, yeah.
Sasha Pearl: can people connect with you?
Abigail Hoyer: I mean, I don't, I would say I don't have a super big presence on the internet. I am like listed on so I woke I work for Wild Heart, Wild Heart Society in Vancouver, Washington. we mainly serve queer and trans individuals, significantly
Sasha Pearl: Amazing.
Abigail Hoyer: youth and teens and all that, and do gender affirming care and just queer affirming care and neurodivergent affirming care. so I'm on the website there. That's what I do in my career. And then I just I have my random personal Instagram and Facebook. But it's private. I don't have like a public persona out there.
Sasha Pearl: Okay.
Abigail Hoyer: yeah. So I yeah, I suppose I mean, we'll s we'll see. Maybe eventually. But for right now, I'm just I'm just working in Vancouver. That's what I'm doing. Yeah.
Sasha Pearl: Perfect. We love it. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Abigail Hoyer: Sure. Pleasure.
